This episode opens with an extended look at Afghanistan five years after the Western withdrawal, featuring guest Shoshana Clark, who has worked in the country since 2006. Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell weigh the costs of the twenty-year intervention against current conditions: improved physical security in many areas alongside severe restrictions on women and girls, a collapsed economy, sanctions and large refugee flows back into the country. They also discuss the near-total absence of official government commentary marking the anniversary, and debate whether continuing to isolate the Taliban helps or harms ordinary Afghans.
The second half turns to Russia, where the hosts examine the Kremlin's move to ban the small liberal Yabloko party ahead of Duma elections, tracing the odd legal pretext used to justify it. They then explore a new front in the war, drone strikes on grain-carrying vessels in the Black Sea, and its knock-on effects for global food markets and Ukraine's export income, alongside rising diplomatic tension involving Turkey, North Korea and a public spat between Donald Trump and South Korea. The episode closes with a reflective conversation about the death of academic Jason Arday, examining the toll of intense media scrutiny and the difficulty of extending empathy and forgiveness to public figures under fire.
Aid Budget
Key points from the discussion
The points they raised, and the official data behind them.
The hosts noted that it has been five years since the last plane left Kabul, marking the end of a twenty-year Western military presence in Afghanistan.
~00:01Context
The US-led invasion of Afghanistan began in October 2001 following the 9/11 attacks, aiming to remove the Taliban government which had sheltered al-Qaeda. Foreign troops withdrew in August 2021 after a NATO-led mission that spanned two decades, ending with the Taliban retaking control of the country.
The hosts cited a total cost of around $2,000 billion for the twenty-year war, though later in the discussion they referenced a figure of $3,000 billion depending on whose accounting, such as Harvard's, is used.
~00:07Context
Estimates of the total cost of the US-led war in Afghanistan vary by source and methodology, with Brown University's Costs of War project and other academic estimates ranging into the trillions of dollars when veterans' care and interest on war borrowing are included.
The hosts said that 2.4 million girls are currently barred from attending secondary school in Afghanistan under Taliban rule.
~00:34Context
Since retaking power in 2021, the Taliban government has banned girls from attending secondary school and university across most of Afghanistan. A UN Special Rapporteur has described the restrictions on women and girls as amounting to gender apartheid, a term used to characterise systematic, institutionalised discrimination based on gender.
The hosts said that fourteen million people in Afghanistan are facing malnutrition and hunger.
~00:47Context
The World Food Programme is the United Nations agency responsible for delivering food assistance in humanitarian crises. It has repeatedly warned of severe food insecurity in Afghanistan following the Taliban takeover and the withdrawal of much international aid.
The hosts said Russia and Ukraine together provide something like 30% of the world's grain exports.
~46:54Context
Russia and Ukraine are among the world's largest grain exporters, and disruption to their exports following Russia's 2022 invasion caused global food price spikes. A Turkish- and UN-brokered deal, the Black Sea Grain Initiative, was set up in 2022 to allow grain shipments to resume through the Black Sea before later collapsing.
The hosts cited Ukrainian President Zelensky's claim that North Korea is preparing to send another 50,000 troops to support Russia.
~52:32Context
North Korea has been reported by Western officials and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to have deployed troops to support Russia's war effort against Ukraine, in addition to supplying munitions. This cooperation has raised concern in South Korea and among Western allies about deepening military ties between Pyongyang and Moscow.